#and if there was just one other seolite person in disco elysium but i think kim's racial isolation is purposeful

[pronouncingitwang]

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[moon-daisie]

i think it would have been such an interesting interaction to meet someone else with seolite heritage in the game, bc kim is literally the only one, and he’s adamant about having as much distance as possible from that side of himself to the point of being openly proud of not speaking seolite. he knows about his family’s history but which implies he was raised by extended family, or maybe he did some digging when he was younger? either option is interesting bc if he was raised by extended (also of seolite heritage) family, does he still talk to them? is he so hellbent on distancing himself from anything seolite he distanced himself from them too? if he did some digging and wanted to know his family history what made him stop? what made him look in the first place?

and then interacting with another seolite person during their investigation: would he give them the same speech he gave harry? what would he do if they reacted with anger, or confusion, or sadness (“i speak seolite. am i not ‘vacholiere’ enough for even you?”)? it seems as though he’s convinced himself that he has a foolproof sort of alibi but what good is his denial when the person standing in front of him is the same as him? if harry was racist to them or stereotyped them what would kim do? he doesn’t say anything when you stereotype lizzy beaufort and he’s a blue lives matter cop through and through but yet he doesn’t like bullies. he idolizes the aerostatic pilots from the same army that brutally murdered his parents.

[ains-disco-spam]

Thoughts on Lena

The first time I played through Disco Elysium, I talked to Lena right after Kim joined my party and immediately got the dialogue option where she says something racist.

Because of that, I was iffy on her from the beginning. But I’ve seen a lot of people say that they actually didn’t know about this dialogue or that they didn’t get it on their playthrough. Whenever I see this dialogue mentioned, there are always a lot of people saying how disappointed they are that she would say something like that because she seems like a nice old lady.

I think that this moment is actually one of the most important depictions of racism in the game. Besides this one instance, Lena is friendly toward you and Kim. If you call her out on the implication that Seolites are a different species than her and Harry, she basically says that being a different species isn't a bad thing because white people have earwax that smells and Seolites don't.

The whole interaction is such a small moment within the game, and a small part of her character. It’s so easy to miss. And that is exactly how racism works.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been talking to an older person who seems kind and then all of a sudden they say something extremely bigoted out of the blue. I actually got the idea to write this after the nice old lady who is a custodian at my job said something transphobic in front of me and it totally broke my heart.

It’s easy to condemn a cross-burning KKK member or a homophobic preacher who says that all LGBTQ+ people will burn in hell. It’s a lot harder for people to condemn bigotry when it comes from people that they otherwise see as kind.

But most bigots are not like Gary the Cryptofascist or Measurehead. Most of them are like Lena. They are the uncles who think that “if people just cooperated with the police then they wouldn’t be shot.” They are the classmates who make fun of the professor’s accent. They are docile old ladies who think that Seolites are not as human as white people are.

And that makes it harder for people to see the bigotry within themselves. People can easily tell themselves things like “I don’t want all trans people to die, so I’m not transphobic. I’m just worried for the children.” When the media only portrays bigotry in its most extreme forms, it is hard to see that being a little bit racist is still being racist.

And this is even more interesting because of her and Morrell’s friendship with Gary. He is a self-proclaimed fascist with an extensive collection of racist mugs, but Lena and Morrell still keep him around, presumably because they are willing to overlook his “differing political opinions” because they think that he is a good person in other ways. And because his fascist ideas do not affect people that look like them.

So yeah, I want to see more people talking about how fascinating Lena and Morrell are as depictions of racism in Disco Elysium.

[elysiuminfra]

OK HIII here’s what i originally wrote before tumblr decided i couldnt post this. oh hi. ngl i got scared seeing this suddenyl pop up i thought de fans were going to GET me for that one but no i can explain. btw thank u for being thoughtful and respectful i appreciate it this isn't about kim's character at all. i feel like ppl would hang me if i commented on kim's character because i have seen people suibait over de discourse. i think the writers clearly understand systematic racism and the impacts of it. however . the worldbuilding on the other hand..... so seol (the country seolites are from, aka the fantasy equivalent of asia) is described as "protectionist and isolationist", which off the bat is very iffy because if we're talking real world correlations this is like, kind of a historical stereotype about japan and china. ppl talk about it being only a japanese and korean equivalent but a lot of the in-game discussion is very much about historic misconceptions about china. further reading: look up anti-chinese propaganda from the british colonial era and youll see the similarities in how seol is talked about in-game there are very much real-world correlations between the cultures of disco elysium. Iilmaraa, for example. many of the names (bashir being a group of people in iilmaraa) (a notable person baring the name samir) have direct correlations. these examples are of arabic and sanskrit origin, and certain people of iilmaraa are noted to participate in fasting and wield scimitars, both things correlating to real-life arabic culture (fasting being, yknow a major part of muslim holidays) (and the scimitar having been a common tool in those countries and further turned into a symbol). also digging into this specific lore and portrayal of arabic culture is like umm questionable too but like it definitely deserves its own separate post for it. my take so far is that its bad anyway seol specifically. its not... a "specific" asian country or represenative of a single culture in asia. it has like, traits of many many different asian countries (china, japan, korea) but then uses names that are korean and japanese. like it doesnt have a real-world correlation beyond "asian". becuase it just mixes everything together. kim's name for example. kim is a common korean name, kitsuragi is a japanese name. BOTH of these names are described as being seolite. the writing itself does not give you any insight into the country beyond "exotic and isolationist" which i guess is the point since youre in harry's brain and harry is like, racist already (another trait fans like to ignore apparently) but this like.... just kind of shoots itself in the foot because we do not see any discussion about seol as a country beyond racist misconceptions. so like ????????? hey de writers whats going on in there. why are you portraying an already generalized country in a way that doesnt even give any insight into anything beyond "it sucks and people are right to dislike it." but like u do not need me to tell you that korea, china and japan are all very, very diffierent countries with very different cultures (INCLUDING a history of colonization, exploitation, and imperialism of the korean peninsula). which leads into the point like. grouping all of these cultures together and generalizing them is.... ignorant at best, downright racist at worst. like i think its extremely irresponsible worldbuilding to take aspects of very very different cultures and throw them together because theyre all in asia. like i think the game is very good at handling how racism impacts people. but it still falls into the fantasy worldbuilding problem of treating asian cultures as a monolith, which is in fact a very common problem.  no one is immune to racist fantasy worldbuilding like dont get me wrong. i like disco elysium ( a normal amount.). it does something new. the way it treats addiction and mental illness in particular speaks to me, a mentally ill addict. but people really need to think before they praise the game fully because despite its strengths it is still deeply flawed and falls into the regular pitfalls of racist fantasy worldbuilding. long story short: the anti-racism game is still racist guys and i think we should talk about it more without killing eachother over it. because the behavior of a lot of disco elysium fans has caused me to believe that some of them are just not normal about it (literally they are maiming eachother in the poorest little meowmeow polls right now its crazy) (also the way i see almost everyone treat kim as a character) i kind of dont think you can claim to be anti-racist if u dont even stop to analyze the racist writing of ur favorite games. and given the fanbase of de i KNOW ppl call themselves leftists in there but like this is just my take on it and its not even an original take. i also fell into the hole of blindly praising disco elysium without analyzing its racist writing before i actually started listening to criticism about it and actually doing my own research. anyway shalom hava good one

can you expand on that (about disco elysium)? I’m not done with the game yet (a little less than halfway thru but I don’t mind spoilers) but I was under the impression that the world building was meant to reflect reality and the reason you have the options to be racist and fascist is bc that’s a part of the world and a part of Harry and you also have the option to be communist and everything. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just would like to hear you out! no pressure to respond if you don’t feel like getting into it though. I understand it’s not fun dealing with fans who will go all out defending what they enjoy regardless of morals.

hold on im just testing this rq bc its likterally not letting me post this ask

[thevagueambition]

I saw someone mention how “faggot” is the only word censored in Disco Elysium and how this points to Harry’s own personal relationship with that word.

Throughout it’s pretty evident that the game pays particular attention to homophobia and if one pays attention to how these elements play out, it’s also pretty clear that Harry himself has a lot of internal struggle bound up in attraction to men. The most reasonable reading of his interaction with The Smoker On The Balcony is that he’s attracted to him but is not entirely willing, or perhaps able, to admit that to himself. The conclusion to The Homo-Sexual Underground thought offers no real answers, because Harry is not ready to answer those questions about himself yet. There’s a real sense that he’s aware of his own attraction to men, but doesn’t allow himself to really be conscious of that awareness.

This is why faggot is censored, too, when nothing else is in the narrative; Harry himself is censoring it out -- something made even clearer by the fully voiced version of the game. Harry doesn’t allow himself to fully hear or comprehend the word, the same way he doesn’t allow himself to comprehend his attraction to The Smoker On The Balcony or, arguably, to Kim.

And Kim seems vaguely aware of all this, as well. Kim comes across as someone who keeps his cards close to his chest, who is very measured in how he presents himself and when and how he allows others to know certain things about him. He’s always managing how he’s perceived, as a gay, part-Seolite man in the world he lives in, doing the type of work he does.

With that self-management comes both, I think, an awareness of the ways Harry is failing to do the same, an awareness that there are things Harry will not allow himself to see but is equally unable to hide, as well as a reticence to share of himself with Harry in the ways that would be necessary to help him in this particular way. I think the gently mocking tone he takes with Harry about the Homo-Sexual Underground stuff is to protect himself and Harry both, while still letting Harry know that a spiral of obsessing about it is not a helpful way to go about figuring out his sexuality. I think he knows that Harry is not ready for a more direct conversation about it and that either indulging or pushing him at this point won’t be helpful. Kim sees him, though, and he does relay that.

Of particular interest is the “Pissf****t” jacket. The game censors that both in descriptions and in the visual, because again, Harry does not allow himself to see it. He can wear the jacket, but he can’t really allow himself to fully perceive it.

Kim, by contrast, says that if he had to wear either the “Fuck The World” jacket or the “ Pissf****t” jacket, he would choose the latter because it packs more of a punch, showing us a lack of the type of aversion to the word that Harry has. He still refuses to wear the jacket, of course, but it comes off more like his professionalism and no-nonsense attitude than the type of inner conflict Harry, who will wear it but not let himself see it, has.

The file for “Pissf****t” jacket actually lists it as jacket_pissflaubert, telling us that just like the racial slurs used in this game are inventions for the purposes of this world, as is the homophobic slur. In-universe, it’s not actually “faggot” it’s “flaubert“, which tells us with even more certainty that the reason it’s the only censored word is not simply out of an avoidance of portraying that slur from the devs pov (the game is not afraid of being crass), but serves a character purpose as well.